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 Post subject: AV
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Just wondered what anyone thought about this alternative voting thats been proposed,how do you feel about it etc?I have mixed feelings myself

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:29 pm 
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We've had the system down here for a while- for what it's worth may be worth having a read of this- http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/201 ... ralia.html

as with everything there are good and bad sides

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:33 pm 
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I'll be voting for it. I really want it to get through; essentially it's what we have for the Scottish parliament and it seems to be working... I don't know. We talked about it loads when I did Modern Studies in school - I know, I know, it doesn't sound great, but I was interested and read loads on it...

I think initially it's a bit confusing for people, but once you get into the swing of things, it's a much better representation of what people are actually voting for. I think with all that happened in the last election we should have realised PR is the only way we're going to be heard.

(*Awaits barrage of abuse for citing stuff learnt in school in a political debate*)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:58 pm 
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The main worry about a system like this is that there isn't a dominant force in Parliament, but surely it's better to have a wider representation of views? If it means more negotiation and compromise to get the best results, then I'm all for it. Like the Americans, we suffer from political swings and abrupt handbrake turn policy shifts. A consequence of AV should be less of that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:46 pm 
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we have the STV version of PR here, I must say it does strike me as a more fairer & balanced way to elect but on the other hand if its only the same bunch of wankers who are attracted into politics and a changless self serving culture does it really matter how they get there or is that me being too cynical ?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:58 am 
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"Concensus", "Compromise", "Sailing a Middle Course" or whatever, can very often lead to everyone not being happy and quite often the wrong decision being made - you end up with a sort of nothingness i.e. neither one thing nor another. Sometimes trying to please everyone is not the right thing to do.

I talk from being a former senior manager in a business were often the "committee" vote was taken when really a very positive, forthright MD dictate would have been the better option.

Regretably, politicians are different to business leaders - their agendas are not always for the good of the country or it's people. Still, I wonder if concensus would be in all our interests if our Leaders were actually well informed, intellegent people who were unhindered by political bias? Sometimes a strong, unpopular decsion needs to be taken for the right reasons, rather than a semi-popular, "fudged" solution that doesn't work.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:19 am 
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It makes me feel like this :eh?

need to do some research before I vote, will be watching this thread with interest, thanks for starting I've found it very helpful already.....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:09 pm 
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efsb wrote:
The main worry about a system like this is that there isn't a dominant force in Parliament, but surely it's better to have a wider representation of views? If it means more negotiation and compromise to get the best results, then I'm all for it. Like the Americans, we suffer from political swings and abrupt handbrake turn policy shifts. A consequence of AV should be less of that.


Exactly this. The Scottish government is a minority at the moment and it doesn't mean nothing gets done; it means things are decided on an issue-by-issue basis rather than one party always getting what they want, and you get a real spread of votes that more accurately represent what people want.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:01 pm 
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As an old fashioned Labour * supporter my instincts are to go with the present system. I am perhaps more inclined to this view since the onslaught (I use that term on purpose) of the Liberal Party in government who have revealed the truth of their origins with the wealthy and privileged.

The current system is flawed but mostly delivers a government empowered to make decisions. The constant battling over each item under consideration will lead to inertia and weak government.

It might be said that weak government would do just fine...leave everything alone and let the status quo rumble on. Hmmmmm..

I think the issue of representation is an important one which the current system doesn't address well, but if we change the voting system we should also change the parliament building so there isn't this antiquated shit with diverse facilities and bad working circumstances. We should also remove the issue of MPs pay from the MPs themselves. The expenses disgrace came out of a very badly managed system which did encourage MPs to play inside the rules but not necessarily in the spirit of the rules because a pay rise for MPs would be universally unpopular in a Ya Boo Sucks way. They are running the country for fucks sake, make the job worth their while BUT stop them from taking payments from ANY other source whilst in office.

If, as in Australia, voting was compulsory then I think there would be more merit in an AV system because it has the capacity to be more truly representative. Voting here is optional, as if it's some easy won thing that everyone has had all along - it encourages the idea that voting means nothing.

What needs to happen above all else is for the politicians to bring some conviction back to politics and to take some risks for what they truly believe in and to prove that parliament is sovereign in the face of the media and multinational corporations.

I am ultimately equivocal about the referendum and will probably vote against AV for purely childish reasons i.e. fuck off Clegg. AV might encourage a greater diversity of options than we have now but again, the elections need to be genuinely even handed - perhaps more so than with the current system, with a set budget for all candidates. With AV there should be no automatic priority for Labour/Liberal/Conservative to dominate the debate and to be allowed the special privilege of "balanced media coverage for these parties"



* could do with some old fashioned Labour to vote for (one not scared to use the Socialism word even if we all know it has never really been a true socialist party)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:20 pm 
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i'm against it.

imagine what you'd have to put for 2nd and 3rd etc; liberals followed by tories then what . . . . . . . bnp ?? !!!

it seems too much of a nicey nicey fudge to me. typical liberal b*ll*cks.

i see the point that fairer representation is a good thing but it seems to me that this policy will just give us the candidate everyone dislikes least rather than a positive choice.

anyway, at the moment it will screw up clegg if he doesn't win, though that is not a good reason to make a long term decision like this.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:25 pm 
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beaux nidle wrote:
anyway, at the moment it will screw up clegg if he doesn't win, though that is not a good reason to make a long term decision like this.


oh I don't know about that :*:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Mmmm. I usually just know what to vote, in every instance, when in doubt, go left, go red, go commie, go instinct. But am looking at the arguments and find myself a bit torn. I have a friend who was elected to the Scottish parliament on a system other than first past the post (no, it wasn't the one who shagged lots of people while his brother in law watched!) and was a brilliant voice, standing up for the poor and furthering the general cause for a fairer society. Now, there is no way that would have happened without some form of alternative vote.
But, on the other hand, are we really being offered an alternative here? And I do worry about the BNP cos there are enough bigots to give these people a platform. I like your argument Expano – I need to have a think about it. Would be interested to know what Alan Noir thinks of this stuff. x


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Any voting system is going to have its flaws, but having thought about this I reckon I'd rather go with proportional representation ( if we can't go back to first - past - the - post, which has to be the simplest and fairest way to do it,even if it does have more than a whiff of luddite about it.)
I reckon AV will increase votes for the BNP and other less dangerous minority parties simply because there's a chance to fill up a form with drivel. Some morons seem to like that.
And how much more counting and admin will AV cause?? Have we enough interested people left to tot up the extra names?
I'm all for a system with clearly defined boundaries and i don't see AV offering that.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:52 pm 
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After some thought i am voting against it,i think the issue has been fudged completely,i worry that you could in theory have the BNP or some other knob end party in power......its a shame because i think the system does need reforming but this isn't what is needed its unnecessarily complicated and thought up by tories so there's got to be a catch or a dodge in their favour somewhere....remember they don't do anything for us....just for the business man and the arms dealer...not families or ordinary folk....Oliver Letwin has made that plain recently with his"thinking"..and they're all the same......anyway i am voting against it.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:07 am 
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Absolutely.
And lets hope that the present debacle will make previously apathetic people who didnt think much about politics, those who perhaps didnt use their vote, wake up and get in the real world. All the demos and rumbles of discontent can be brushed off by tbe Government but they cant ignore votes.for the past few years ive voted Lib Dem in local elections as they were the only party who did anything. Always voted Labour in tbe nationals. This time its Labour all the way, and a vote against AV.
I absolutely cannot and have never been able tounderstand any working class person in right minds giving this lot any kind of credence.
Surely we will se a huge swing to Labour in May. If not that commune is definitely on the cards.


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