Richard Hawley

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

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Agreed. The trade unions can't just be dismissed in a sentence. They represent millions of people in this country and, arguably, in a more democratic way than most political parties. If you don't agree with them, fair enough, but there are millions of us that don't really do the corporate view of society either.

What I think is clear about this debate is the poverty of argument and a clear lack of ideology, belief, ideas and passion. I want to vote for someone who believes, passionately in what they are putting forward and has the ideas to make a real difference to people's lives. I don't want fudge, consensus, middle ground. The fact that politicians are all the same, representing themselves and the ruling elite, is why you have thousands of people who don't bother to vote, whatever system is in place. x


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:37 pm 
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n my humble opion Coalitions/concensus decisons are probably good only in times of war (common cause etc) but not for making "United Kingdom PLC" work again. I'm not sure what the Lib Dems are all about anymore but the Tories and Labour have very different ideas on how to run the country and tackle the National Debt. One clear plan must be better to work to than a fudged one?


I have to agree with you LPD - if you're a die hard Tory then your AV will not be for the lib dems or labour (possibly for someone like the BNP/EDL) and if you're a Liberal or Labour your no. 2 vote is bound to be for the other one and not the Tories - this is why Nick Clegg et al want it so much, its the only way they'll retain any power! I'm fucked if I'm going to give them more opportunities to balls everything up.. i'll definitely be voting NO !!


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Remember....a no vote will be a massive relief for Cameron.The Tory's will tweek the boundaries again and again,and play every trick in the book to keep themselves in power.
If (more likely,when) AV gets rejected,they will convince anybody who has half an ear for their policies,that they are even more popular,that the nation has backed THEM.
Don't believe that the great British public will vote them out at the next FPTP election,they have previous form on that.
Imagine,twelve more years of Thatcher style rule..........then think again of the chance you have to stop that.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:24 pm 
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Hawleytastic!
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I'm just struggling a little bit at the moment trying to divorce the two options from the individuals promoting them. I know what I believe to be the fairer system ... and the 'successful' system will go on long after the people promoting the different options have been voted out of power ...

I need to sleep on it, I think!

Thanks for all the information and argument though - it's really helped ... errr .... I think ....

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Little Dickie wrote:
Remember....a no vote will be a massive relief for Cameron.The Tory's will tweek the boundaries again and again,and play every trick in the book to keep themselves in power.
If (more likely,when) AV gets rejected,they will convince anybody who has half an ear for their policies,that they are even more popular,that the nation has backed THEM.
Don't believe that the great British public will vote them out at the next FPTP election,they have previous form on that.
Imagine,twelve more years of Thatcher style rule..........then think again of the chance you have to stop that.


spot on! the FPTP system is easily tweaked to insure parliamentary majority on a minority vote. It has always been used in this way by the tories. Look into your history. A no vote tomorrow virtually assures us of ~Tory rule until things get so bad as to lead to a landslide Labour victory. Took 12 years last time. Most of those elections they won on a minority vote.
.... I'll say that again TWELVE YEARS
TWELVE YEARS OF TORY RULE.....WHAT WILL BE LEFT AFTER THAT!

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Hawleytastic!
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Shambolic Charm wrote:

spot on! the FPTP system is easily tweaked to insure parliamentary majority on a minority vote. It has always been used in this way by the tories. Look into your history. A no vote tomorrow virtually assures us of ~Tory rule until things get so bad as to lead to a landslide Labour victory. Took 12 years last time. Most of those elections they won on a minority vote.
.... I'll say that again TWELVE YEARS
TWELVE YEARS OF TORY RULE.....WHAT WILL BE LEFT AFTER THAT!


But is the reason we had twelve years of Tory rule solely related to the voting system?

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 7:19 am 
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Hawleytastic!
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former pink lady wrote:
is the reason we had twelve years of Tory rule solely related to the voting system?


One being that plenty of folks 'swing' their votes - like I will at the next General Election...

I think in retirement if things stay FPTP I'll move to a marginal so my vote 'really' counts - presently the Tories walk in with a massive majority - only the Hamilton v Bell incident of 97 threw out the Tories in the constituency next to mine.

Marginal seats swinging from one party to another at each election - I'd like to see how the effects of marginality would be impacted by AV as opposed to FPTP.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:15 am 
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Hawleytastic!

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ladyblue wrote:
I have to agree with you LPD - if you're a die hard Tory then your AV will not be for the lib dems or labour (possibly for someone like the BNP/EDL) and if you're a Liberal or Labour your no. 2 vote is bound to be for the other one and not the Tories - this is why Nick Clegg et al want it so much, its the only way they'll retain any power! I'm fucked if I'm going to give them more opportunities to balls everything up.. i'll definitely be voting NO !!


Nice to see you're feeling better, love. x


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:36 am 
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The idea that having a single party government will not give fudge answers to problems is a load of bollocks frankly. We had 13 years of Labour government fighting and hating each other with fudged policies the whole way through, as we are told again and again in the slew of books that have come out since last year.

The last Labour government was at war between itself and the idea of any party being united in government has never been, and never will be, true.

People just have to forget Nick Clegg today. You are voting for a system which will be be used for decades and he will be gone in four. We have to look at the political and practical realites. We have to play the long game.

Spiting Nick Clegg today may make you feel better, but you would have voted for a system that makes Tory majority governments easier and Labour governments harder. The Labour No campaign are living in a dream world where people in this country are either Red or Blue, and that changed years ago.

A No vote is a vote to help the Tories, it is that simple. It was the system that kept Thatcher in power with only 35% of the vote. Do we want that to happen again?

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:37 am 
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After a lot of research I have decided to vote yes in the end,we had a long talk about it in the pub and it seems clear to me now despite my earlier opinion which was based on misinformation I reckon hope you all find the decision your happiest with

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:54 am 
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Hawleytastic!
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I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna vote. I don't mean which way I'm gonna vote, I mean literally how am I gonna vote. Didn't receive anything through the post and can't get hold of anyone to find out what to do. Might just turn up with some ID and see what happens.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:57 am 
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RP wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna vote. I don't mean which way I'm gonna vote, I mean literally how am I gonna vote. Didn't receive anything through the post and can't get hold of anyone to find out what to do. Might just turn up with some ID and see what happens.


I don't think you don't need the polling card, just ID, probably something with a photo and also something to prove your address.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:12 am 
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Hawleytastic!
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Cheers Craig. I went down there and they just asked my name and address and it was a piece of cake. Voted yes!

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

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Richard Hawley wrote:
After a lot of research I have decided to vote yes in the end,we had a long talk about it in the pub and it seems clear to me now despite my earlier opinion which was based on misinformation I reckon hope you all find the decision your happiest with


we've gone the same way in my house too.
my earlier hot under the collarness was mostly based on my distaste of the libs.

if the tories don't want it then i'm all for it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Well, that's that then for voting this year.

However you voted, let's all be thankful we live in a country where we have the right to voice our opinions; Democracy, I salute you ..>

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