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 Post subject: the folks on Dale farm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Just want to say that i am with the folks on Dale farm ALL THE WAY,its an outrage they are being moved on by force,Basildon council should be totally ashamed of themselves,its a ridiculous situation that is actually putting peoples lives at risk,anyway.....just wanted to nail my flag to your post so to speak i hope you win ..>

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:47 pm 
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On the surface, yeah, why shouldn't disused land/ property be put to good use- but there's always another side, i haven't read it up fully so don't want to comment yet. One things for sure there will be blood shed today.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:18 pm 
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This is what I'm on about,forget the legal bollocks,it's the risk of life and limb I am most worried about.very irresponsible

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Yeah BUT they are breaking the law and have been given loads of notice to move on.

At the end of the day you and I live in peace with our neighbours and pay our way with rates and stuff , albeit grudgingly (on my part anyway!!!) - what gives them the right to live differently?

This looks like squatting to me.

And if I was doing something that flagrantly broke the rules, got people's backs up and was pretty much destined to end with people getting hurt if not a death or several (and that's what scares me here) I'd stop doing it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Nice to hear Richard lending support. I know travellers and Gypsies divide opinion but the Gypsy idea is that you don't use hospitals, schools, libraries etc. so you don't pay taxes. It's a different lifestyle but I think it's important to preserve and respect it.

There is a very small element of the Gypsy community that seem like nasty pieces of work. Drug dealing, stealing, fighting (I've experienced all of that first hand from them). But I think it's important that people don't use that image to discriminate against the entire community.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Nice romantic view point RP but they're still using electricity, waterand roads that the rest of us are paying for.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:50 pm 
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I can see both sides of this. I think it really should have been sorted out - one way or the other - way before it got to the huge, out of all proportion situation it's in now. It ssems to me the council have mismanaged things terribly. And of course, if proper channels were gone through by the travellers, originally, it wouldn't have come to this. Can't see that removing people by force is going to have a good outcome though.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:54 pm 
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I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure they pay a certain amount of rent for the sites they stay on and electricity and water is probably factored in to that. I met someone who ran a Gypsy campsite once and he said rent collection can be a bit dicey.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:16 am 
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maggie wrote:
Yeah BUT they are breaking the law and have been given loads of notice to move on.


THE LAW is an anagram of WEALTH. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:41 am 
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I didn't know about this at all and just read through some pages from Swiss TV, BBC, Guardian etc.

Here in Germany, some cities face problems with Roma (mostly) travellers (or more like: refugees) from the Balkans. There have been lots of cases, where a couple or small family rented a flat, which was inhabitated by a dozen or more of further relatives only shortly thereafter. Didn't and doesn't work at all with the neighbours - too many people, too much noise, too much waste. But this here "housing structure" also doesn't really work for the needs of the Roma, whose simple motivation for moving here is trying to find better chances for their children and themselves, a better living, work. Can't blame anyone for that. But as most of them are not able to communicate in our language, it is very hard to avoid the growth of parallel societies instead of an integrated community with a different cultural background, that can be respected and supported. There is a lot of constructive work to be done, and fast.

In this light, I think that Dale Farm is not only a different cup of tea. To me it looks like expelling those people from their home - as far as I understood: they paid for it - without giving them a new site that pays tribute to their cultural heritage (which is not just a life-style) is wasting a chance. I am convinced, if we go on isolating or knocking down communities in this way, ours (where or whatever it is) will be next.

Legal bollocks, as Richard said. The confrontational policy of the Basildon Council imho not only marks them as dimwits, but is dangerous to say the least. And it features the obligatory double standard, too:

http://dalefarm.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/dale-farm-concreted-over-by-basildon-council/

I hope the injunction can calm the situation down and that a proper alternative site can be found.


btw: Looks like this is my longest rant in seven years of Hawleyboard membership. Probably triggered by the memory of an article I once wrote abot the fate of a young mother and her two daughters, Roma from Kosovo, who were forced by the authorities to return to their alleged "home" after more than ten years living a normal mid-european life in a suburb of my hometown, where the children went to school. They ended up in a small one-room hut in a refugee camp, no mod cons whatever, no schooling, nothing. :evil:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:13 am 
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Read a piece in the guardian that said there were only 16 travellers pitches available nationwide yesterday, hardly a proper solution for those families. Where are they supposed to go? There's no public housing to speak of in this country and nobody wants them in their back yard.

I sympathise with those affected if there has been anti-social behaviour but if proper facilities are not found, where are they supposed to go? School playing fields? Public parks?

Reminds me of a line in a Nina Simone song: You don't have to live next to me, just give me my equality.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:35 am 
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Ignatz Wrobel wrote:
maggie wrote:
Yeah BUT they are breaking the law and have been given loads of notice to move on.


THE LAW is an anagram of WEALTH. :wink:


Ok in that case I'll justpack my job in, steal your car and break in to your house then :D

Reports yesterday said that some travellers (that's a mis nomer. These people aren't travelling anywhere - they just don't want t olive like the rest of us) are moving from the illegal site to the legal one NEXT DOOR which indicates that there are spaces if people want to sort this peacefully.

Reading back over the history of this the 'travellers' purchased the land and applied for planning permission in 2010. Purchased land?
What with? Further reports say that the majority of the travellers are illiterate due to poor access to schools(their lifestyle, their choice as far as I can see) so they can't be earning much.

How are they funded? I work and I'm fairly literate and I couldn't afford to enter into a co operative to buy land!!!

And the fact that they have 'poor access to schools' proves that they are prepared to take advantage of services.

Seems to me they want to live outside the confines of society without actually having to pay like everyone else.

I'm all for individuality and I can see the attraction of wanting to be part of an alternative community, but if I have to contribute to a tax system I don't want to be supporting any more people who are free loading.

I don't think this is about a part of society wanting to opt out and live a different lifestyle. It's about belligerence and point scoring.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:45 pm 
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You've got a good point Maggie, and probably it would be fairer if Gypsies paid some taxes. But what it boils down to is the government saying 'you have to live how we say... otherwise we'll deal with it by force'.

You could say they're sponging off the system, but then it's not as if they collect dole money or any other benefits. They just want to live their lifestyle and carry on their culture which is probably older than our system of government.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:53 pm 
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Hardly preserving a travelling culture when it involves long term squatting on a static site tho.
They fon't want to live inside society but they are flaunting the alternative that's provided for them. If anyone else flew in the face of planning permission they'd have to take whatever they'd constructed down. Why should these people be treated differently?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:12 pm 
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That's a fair comment. But I kind of look up to people who live outside of the system, be it squatters, river boat people, Gypsies or travelers. There's ambiguities about all of those lifestyles, but I feel that they represent freedom. Which is maybe why the government is trying to do away with all of them.

Perhaps they can only exist though if people like me and you are paying our taxes. Fair point. I reckon it's worth it though. Some of the best bands in Britain have come out of squatting culture for example.

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