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Richard Hawley • View topic - EU in or out?

Richard Hawley

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:31 am 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:06 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: sunny sunny manchester
complicated business indeed.
my three ha'porth

i'm in.

although, the argument to leave sits well with both the hard left and hard right. the right thinks they're constrained by a bureaucratic bunch of busybodies and the left wants out of a capitalist conspiracy.

trouble is, if we leave, it'll be crowed about by the right who will claim it as their victory, and i couldn't stand that. even though corbyn as a pretty hard lefty has had a consistent position of leave, it seems he's concluded it would be dangerous to leave, probably as it would fuel the rightists to dismantle what little remaining protection we plebs have. maybe the RMT have a point, but i'd hope we can do something about that.

fundamentally, i go back to a driving force of the founding of the EU which is to seek an end to a continuous history of war, in which our forebears were ground into foreign fields for generations, and if we hadn't had the EU after the 2nd world war, i'd probably be squashed in a field by now, too.

i'm in.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:06 am 
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Hawley Groupie

Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:03 pm
Posts: 189
Location: kent
I'd almost made my mind up that, 'in', was the way to go. Then I spoke to an old mate who works for a European Company in London. I assumed that because she would loose her job, she would be 'in'. Goodness, I couldn't have been more wrong. When I asked her what she thought, she was extremely animated. Her opinion was that being in Europe, was holding us back, keeping us in check. Without going into too much detail, we, as the UK, come up with i.e. invent, create, manufacture some extraordinary, clever and intuitive products. She said, she sees first hand, what happens when the companies that come up with them, have to go through the EU committees, and are simply knocked back and the ideas quashed. Obviously some are not good. But, she said (she is one of the most intelligent people I've ever know) they pop up later, being made and sold by the USA or China. Where if they were British, and given British backing (which in her opinion would happen more often, if we were 'out') we would get the benefit.

Although it was great to talk to her, I'm even more in the dark than I was before.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:26 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:06 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: sunny sunny manchester
have a look at the video at the top of this page from the guardian



yanis varoufakis, previous lefty greek finance minister, seems to think in is the best idea.

(can anyone work out how to embed the video in the post ?)

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:39 pm 
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Hawleytastic!
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 4421
Location: Cheshire
I cheated by looking it up on youtube and dropping it in :wink:



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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:47 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:56 am
Posts: 2624
Location: London
If I may lower the tone for a moment... Whoar! Thinking woman's crumpet. Now back to the arguments... Xx


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:52 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:06 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: sunny sunny manchester
well that's may be, but i always thought it was phwoar.

as you were.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:53 pm 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:06 pm
Posts: 2160
Location: sunny sunny manchester
that's the long version mr poppy dog, i was after the concise one, ta though.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:22 am 
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Hawleytastic!

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:56 am
Posts: 2624
Location: London
Always my downfall, fancying men with brains. Always easier to plump for the stupid ones...x


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:21 pm 
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Hawley Groupie

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:47 am
Posts: 164
on a personal level, where I work we export a lot, and leaving the EU would be a pain in the arse, so I veer towards in. But there's arguments all ways. If you can't decide, maybe the best way would be to ignore the waffle, and contemplate your navel - 'in' or 'out'.


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:08 pm 
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The Boss
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Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 9:54 am
Posts: 18651
Location: Sheffield
Seen the Frankie Boyle article? Utter genius,bang on and very very funny


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Hawley Groupie
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:12 pm
Posts: 174
Location: Hull
The frankie Boyle article is superb.

I'm still not decided as I've yet to see an argument that proves which vote actually will make a difference to my life. All I see is those arseholes in Westminster being ever more flagrant about the contempt they have for the working man and insulting his/her intelligence.

David Cameron's ex strategist presented a very good argument for 'out' on question time last week, and Frankie Boyle presents a good one for in. Corbyn's comments have been as usual very balanced and seem without ulterior motive, though the media will continue to try and paint him in the worst light possible because he doesn't play to establishment rules.

If the out vote included a complete overhaul of our parliamentarians then I'd be 100% there! But as it stands I am continuing to wait for that tangible argument that connects with me.

Easy innit...... :eh?

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:49 pm 
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The Boss
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Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 9:54 am
Posts: 18651
Location: Sheffield
I'm definitely"in"now.....I wouldn't trust Boris Johnson with my kids dinner money....history tells us the world is better place if people communicate with each other whether your on a council estate or on a planet....the end.....it's not perfect but the alternative is so backwards....and don't forget the mirror faces both ways for us as well as"immigrants"....all of who wish to travel or work abroad will have to fuck about with visas for EVERY country you visit....I've been there....I remember having three passports at one time...two to apply for visas and one to travel with and it was a nightmare for a touring musician trust me....and we were in a touring party of 18 people :shock:

As for the"it lets in terrorism"and the"they're taking all our NHS waiting lines up"argument I'm afraid that doesn't wash with me....why not properly fund the people who work in counterterrorism,the police,the army,fire service,Drs and Nurses,GP's and midwives,teachers etc and the whole f****n brilliant,awesome and magnificent infrastructure this country has instead of savagely cutting everything we hold dear and we'd have room for half the bloody world.....the heart of this country is blimmin beautiful I just wish they'd let it be what it is....a free thinking progressive land with an ancient history like no other....from its ancient folk tales to its amazing health care system that is a beacon of light in an increasingly dark world.....fuck me....it's not that complicated is it?

Cough....

Right I'm off to bed....! :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:31 am 
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Hawley Super-Groupie
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Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 268
Location: SE London
Heartfelt! I agree re looking outwards and being a part of something, as opposed to isolating ourselves.
I'm wondering - does anyone know whether we would lose our recourse to the European Court of Human Rights if we left? That would certainly swing it for me.
What puts me off 'remain' is the one-sided emphasis on the importance of a competitive economy. Personally, I think we all need to slow down, and stop trying so damn heard to be the top dog all the time. We need to take the pressure off ourselves, and regain a decent work / life balance. We only get one shot at this life, and I for one don't want to spend mine working long hours in order to 'stay competitive'. And so, I'm trying not to let the 'economy is God' argument get in the way of my gut feeling about staying in.
Ultimately, for me though, it's about humanity, and so if we lose the Court of Human Rights, then I'm voting stay.

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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:35 am 
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Hawleytastic!
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 4421
Location: Cheshire
It's all here - enough to send you to sleep or cure a nasty cough...



"The European Court of Human Rights is not a European Union institution. It was set up by the Council of Europe (CoE), which has 47 members including Russia and Ukraine."


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 Post subject: Re: EU in or out?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:08 am 
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The Boss
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Joined: Fri May 30, 2003 9:54 am
Posts: 18651
Location: Sheffield
We live in a time of terrible work force abuse don't you think?....,zero hours contracts for starters are appalling....but far from freeing folks from this if we leave the EU....I believe its voting for the snarling wolf to gently close the door behind us as those who vote stay wave their flags for"freedom"....it's about accountability to me....I don't trust ANY of those politicians as it is but without accountability they'd do anything to keep"us"????....competitive.....it's a short hop,skip and a jump from zero hours to Dickensian work place horror.....it's the nature of capitalism....the rampant scramble for profit ousts the moral compass....I hope this isn't bullying or ranting on too much....I just think everyone....us and European folks are better if we keep our arms and our minds open....nuff said


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